In this conversation, Dr. Suzanne Simard’s pioneering research reveals that forests function as interdependent communities linked by underground fungal networks—dubbed the “wood wide web”—through which trees exchange carbon, water, and nutrients. Using isotopes and molecular genetics, she explains how older, stronger “mother trees” play a vital role in sustaining younger trees, fostering resilience and continuity across ecosystems.

Dr. Simard emphasizes the parallels between ecological cooperation and human societies, arguing that collective action is essential for addressing environmental crises. She highlights how Indigenous knowledge has long recognized these interconnections, now affirmed by Western science, offering hope for renewal when communities lead restoration efforts. Concluding, Dr. Simard urges integrating scientific rigor with spiritual and Indigenous wisdom to cultivate a holistic, sustainable relationship with nature that nurtures both ecosystems and human communities.

Show Notes

• [00:00] Opening reflection — Simard challenges the dominance of “selfish gene” thinking and argues for seeing life — from forests to economies — as rooted in community and interdependence.
• [01:54] Growing up in the forest — Childhood in British Columbia’s inland rainforest, surrounded by old-growth cedar and hemlock, salmon-filled rivers, and the balance of livelihood and life-giving ecosystems.
• [03:12] Family logging practices — Generations of selective harvesting, ingenuity, and respect for natural rhythms (e.g., timing with spring river flows). Contrast with industrial-scale clear-cutting that later transformed forestry.
• [05:16] Entering the forestry industry — As a young forester, Simard confronts the stark shift from local stewardship to multinational exploitation, and the “normal forest” model of monocultures built for efficiency and profit.
• [7:01] Indigenous stewardship — Insights into how local First Nations practiced relational, place-based management — including seasonal burning — and how colonial bans on those practices destabilized ecosystems, creating today’s volatile fire conditions.
• [09:46] Clear-cuts and monocultures — The vulnerabilities of simplified forests: outbreaks like the mountain pine beetle devastate landscapes because diversity and natural buffers are stripped away.
• [11:47] Discovering the underground network — Simard’s doctoral work reveals that mycorrhizal fungi connect trees belowground, trading carbon, water, and nutrients. Forests are not just collections of individuals but deeply interconnected communities.
• [14:08] Experimental proof — Using carbon isotopes, shading, and drought manipulations, she shows that stronger trees support weaker ones: “the more enriched tree provides for the one with less.”
• [16:38] Forests as social networks — Mapping with isotopes and genetic tools, Simard and her students uncover complex webs of cooperation, leading her to describe forests as intelligent, perceptive systems.
• [18:49] Beyond metaphor — Debate over words like “intelligence” or “consciousness.” Simard speaks of agency and responsiveness, and acknowledges parallels to human communities.
• [19:55] Indigenous concepts — Words such as “Arutam” in the Amazon or Coast Salish and Nuu-Chah-Nulth expressions capture nuances of forest consciousness that English lacks.
• [20:53] Expanding the frame: salmon and bears — Collaboration with Tsimshian scientist Dr. Teresa Ryan reveals how salmon nutrients cycle into forests via wildlife and are taken up by trees, even traveling above waterfalls through fungal networks. “Trees are carnivorous, in a way.”
• [23:51] The “Wood Wide Web” — Popular nickname for these networks. Indigenous teachings have long affirmed the same truth: all of life is interconnected.
• [24:26] Mother Trees — Mapping Douglas Fir networks shows that the oldest, most connected trees distribute carbon preferentially to their offspring — even recognizing kin. These keystone elders become regenerative anchors of forest communities.
• [26:10] Lessons for culture — The forest models interdependence, while industrial society has pursued isolation and exploitation. How can we re-seed cultural practices of reciprocity, balance, and connection?
• [27:16] A global reorganization — From British Columbia to the Amazon, local groups are reclaiming ecosystems and livelihoods, moving beyond extractive economic models. “It’s irrepressible,” says Simard.
• [29:11] Case study: Kwiakah Nation — A small First Nation reclaims logged lands, diversifies replanted monocultures, and revitalizes indigenous knowledge — showing how ecosystems rebound when oppressive forces are lifted.
• [30:22] Hope through regeneration — From rivers freed of dams to tomato plants on an apartment deck, regeneration is a principle woven into life itself. Once you witness it, “you can never unlearn it.”
• [31:56] Multi-level selection — From individuals to groups to the biosphere, cooperation proves more resilient than competition. At the planetary level, Gaia theory describes Earth itself as a self-organizing superorganism.
• [34:25] Final reflections — Put spirit back into science and work. Beyond clinical measurement, transformation happens when research and action are guided by heart and spirit.