Host

The Garrison Institute co-founder, urban visionary and award-winning author Jonathan F.P. Rose.

Guest

Indy Johar is an internationally recognized architect, systems thinker, and co-founder of Dark Matter Labs, a global research and innovation practice focused on redesigning the foundational systems of society. His work spans civic infrastructure, governance, finance, technology, and urban development, with a focus on building life-ennobling, regenerative, and democratic futures. Indy has co-created influential initiatives including WikiHouse, OpenDesk, and Impact Hub, and advises governments, cities, and institutions around the world.

Read and download the full transcript.

[00:00-02:22]
Jonathan F.P. Rose introduces Indy’s work, highlighting his role as architect and systems innovator and the purpose of the conversation: to explore complex systems change rooted in care, ecology, and new civic imagination.

[02:22-05:48]
Indy recounts his childhood in London and India, including surviving the 1984 Delhi riots. These experiences shaped his early understanding of violence, community, and interdependence. Indy reflects on his engagement with religious and philosophical texts — from Christian theology to Buddhism — and how these influenced his sense of ego, humility, and relational being.

[05:48-08:01]
He discusses neuroscience and microbiome frameworks that support relational views of consciousness, contrasting them with objectified, divisive worldviews rooted in modernism.

[08:01-11:46]
Indy explains that he didn’t set out to be an architect; rather, his academic path became a way to bridge social history, science, and design thinking, ultimately changing how he saw cities as relational spaces.

[11:46-13:24]
Jonathan characterizes Indy’s shift from traditional architecture toward reimagining social systems as a move from modernism towards a more spiritual, interconnected worldview. 

[13:24-17:42]
Indy discusses leaving consulting to work on real-world projects (e.g., Bristol Urban Beach, Impact Hub, OpenDesk, WikiHouse). These experiences taught him the limits of single-point investing, as in the venture capital model; instead, systemic transformation requires a systems view of investing. 

[17:42-22:19]
A pivotal insight came from analyzing the High Line: public goods generate massive private value uplift (for example, in real estate prices nearby), yet current systems capture little of that for reinvestment. This insight led into ideas around shared risk, multi-party economic structures, and new asset models. Jonathan shares various examples of civic assets developed by different cities similar to this model.

[22:19-25:13]
Indy describes a shift from vertical, representative models of governance toward horizontal, multi-stakeholder economic systems that distribute risk and benefit more democratically.

[25:13-30:32]
He elaborates on organizing civic economies by bio-region rather than existing municipal boundaries and transitioning from static balance sheets to dynamic flows, where multiple interconnected assets (e.g., tree canopy, cooling systems) contribute to shared outcomes.

[30:32-36:43]
Indy introduces concepts like intrinsic financing, streaming value economies, and post-currency models, where care, regenerative practices, and intangible contributions are recognized alongside traditional capital. Discussion of care and other non-monetary economies and the role of money within them. 

[36:43-42:39]
Indy articulates his relational ontology with regard to citizenship: citizenship emerges from interconnected systems and shared consciousness rather than individual rights. Discussion of the awareness of the limits of our own consciousness, doubt, and the need for conversation and relationship.

[42:39-50:10]
The conversation turns to presence as foundational — more important than engineered processes — because presence grounds meaningful relational engagement. Indy and Jonathan explore the entanglement of human, ecological, and technological (AI) systems, proposing that the planet (partly through the earth materials used to create technology) may be becoming self-aware through this convergence.

[50:10-55:35]
Indy highlights a looming shadow question of the century: as automation transforms labor, we must redefine what it means to be human, and to be human among entangled ecological systems.

[55:35-57:47]
They return to care — not as a commodity, but as a relational mode of being rooted in curiosity, doubt, and tenderness.

[57:47-end]
Indy concludes by framing their insights as part of a new operational logic for complexity, not a moral agenda — arguing that relational modes of organizing are the most effective way to navigate a multi-agent, complex world. Jonathan agrees, and emphasizes the role of contemplation within that mode.