Host

The Garrison Institute co-founder, urban visionary and award-winning author Jonathan F.P. Rose.

Guest

Joanna Macy was a pioneering environmental activist, Buddhist scholar, systems thinker, and the creator of The Work That Reconnects, a transformative framework that helps people face ecological crisis and reconnect with the web of life through gratitude, insight, and action. A leading voice in deep ecology, her influential books include Active Hope, Coming Back to Life, and World as Lover, World as Self. Joanna died in 2025 and left behind an extraordinary legacy of courage, compassion, and vision for the “Great Turning” toward a life-sustaining world.

Download the full transcript here.

[00:00] Introduction to Joanna Macy and the conversation: Joanna Macy is introduced as a pioneer of deep ecology, systems thinking, and “The Work That Reconnects,” bridging Buddhist wisdom and modern science.

[02:39] Early life and formative experiences: Macy reflects on her early work in government service, her time in India with Tibetan refugees, many of whom were monks and lamas, and how witnessing lived Buddhist practice shaped her path.

[06:55] Buddhism and systems thinking converge: She describes her academic work on early Buddhist teachings and the revelation of non-linear causality, aligning with emerging systems theory. Joanna recounts how this period of study helped her see how much she loved teaching, and how to combine teaching with action. Emphasis on “our larger body,” being the web of life from which our identities emerge.

[10:55] Rethinking causality and interdependence: Joanna explains the difference between a linear conception of cause-and-effect (A causes B, B causes C) to mutual, non-linear, reciprocal influence, where everything affects everything else (A changes B, and B changes A). 

[14:01] From control to co-creation: The conversation explores how social and environmental change can emerge most powerfully not through force or domination, but rather through relationship and through nurturing the conditions that give rise to change.

[17:40] Joanna’s life question: being present in a broken world: Joanna shares her life’s guiding question: how to remain fully joyful, useful, and present to the world even as our species destroys that world. The first step, Joanna insists, is to not distance oneself from the world, even as our industrial society encourages such self-numbing.

[19:24] Turning toward pain and “despair work”: She acknowledges how a lot of people fear facing climate grief and fear directly, and encourages exactly such a practice. She suggests that feeling the despair can be a gateway to fruitful action, a release from paralysis.

[23:00] The Great Turning: Joanna outlines the transition from an industrial growth society (which leads to the “Great Unraveling”) to a life-sustaining civilization (the “Great Turning”). This transition will require everything from individual action (even recycling one’s trash), to bigger systems change through activism and direct action. Underlying all this is a process of inner and collective transformation.

[27:46] Wisdom and action as one: Drawing on Buddhist teaching (“wisdom and action are like two hands washing each other”), she emphasizes that insight and action are inseparable—each informing and deepening the other. The wisdom is that there is no permanent separate self, which motivates action to protect others and the more-than-human world.

[31:32] Gratitude as a radical force: Joanna reframes gratitude as “subversive,” challenging consumer culture and opening a sense of sufficiency, generosity, and connection. 

[35:47] A transformative awakening experience: She recounts the most affecting, profound moment of her life, when her self-boundaries were dissolved on a crowded train in India and she experienced deep unity with all life. She found herself left with three words: “Released into action.” 

[42:07] Climate despair and burnout: In response to a listener question regarding burnout from climate change advocacy, Joanna encourages stepping back from this work, reconnecting with care, and finding ways to feel the world “loving you back.” She reflects on the value of letting go, acknowledging the possibility that humanity may go extinct, and yet still have found meaning through collective love, courage, and shared purpose. 

[49:40] Loving what is without approval: Joanna distinguishes love from endorsement, inviting openness even to what we resist, including political and social divisions. She calls for deep listening and curiosity across differences, emphasizing connection over winning arguments.

[59:47] Closing reflections on purpose: Returning to her life’s guiding question, Joanna invites listeners to discover their own guiding inquiry, one that shapes a meaningful life of service and presence.