Host

The Garrison Institute co-founder, urban visionary and award-winning author Jonathan F.P. Rose.

Guest

Jeremy Lent is an award-winning author, systems thinker, and advocate for an ecological civilization. His work explores how cultural worldviews shape crises and future possibilities. He wrote The Patterning Instinct and The Web of Meaning, and leads initiatives like the Deep Transformation Network, promoting interconnectedness, justice, and regenerative ways of living.

Read and download the full transcript.

[03:51]
Jeremy shares his personal journey—from a successful tech entrepreneur to a systems thinker shaped by loss, caregiving, and a deep search for meaning through philosophy and science.

[06:44]
He explains how the idea of ecological civilization reframes change as systemic—not just economic or cultural, but a transformation of the entire structure of civilization.

[09:12]
The conversation explores Daoism, Confucianism, and the Neo-Confucian concept of li, that which determines the organizing principles of the universe, connecting ancient Chinese philosophy with modern complexity science and systems thinking. Discussion of modern China’s approach to ecological civilization and how successful it is. 

[16:54]
Jeremy traces the rise of the modern worldview from the early Enlightenment —scientific materialism, colonialism, and capitalism—and how these ideals institutionalized extraction, exploitation, and hierarchy. Emphasis on the rise of the logic of the limited liability corporation, which distributes profit to shareholders, but not liabilities such as environmental destruction. 

[20:16]
He introduces the metaphor of “Wendigo capitalism,” referencing an indigenous American monster to describe a self-perpetuating system of endless consumption that grows more destructive the more it consumes.

[23:10]
Jeremy outlines a powerful model for change in the three horizons model. If you imagine you’re traveling, the first horizon is what is right in front of you, and maps onto the instinct to maintain the current system to survive. The second horizon is what is visible ahead of you, mapping onto transitional but flawed innovations like large electric car companies that perpetuate the extractive logic of capitalism. The third horizon is that which exists beyond what you can see right now: a fundamentally transformed future. The question is how can we navigate the first horizon, that which is right in front of us, in order to arrive at the third horizon that is our goal?

[28:14]
An ecological civilization is rooted in values like interconnectedness, dignity, equity, subsidiarity, and cooperation—replacing domination and extraction.

[35:56]
Drawing on political scientist Elinor Ostrom, the first woman to win the Nobel Prize in Economics, Jeremy explains how commons-based systems reflect our evolutionary roots in cooperation and shared governance, and how different groups around the globe continue to flourish using this model. Emphasis on shared justice within the group and self-policing, rather than external authorities. 

[44:31]
The discussion turns to the attention economy, how digital platforms extract attention and value—and how decentralized, community-owned systems (for example, Uber following Wikipedia’s model) could offer alternatives. Discussion of Fab Labs, WikiHouse, and seed libraries, as examples.

[51:59]
Jeremy offers a hopeful reframe: as the current system unravels, it creates space for transformation. Rather than the ends justifying the means, Jeremy suggests the means become the end: we need to align our activism with the values of the future we want to build (such as refusing to objectify or other the people we hold responsible for ecological crisis).

[56:12]
The episode closes with a powerful idea: we don’t have to wait. We can begin embodying an ecological civilization—through care, community, and “fractal flourishing”—right now.