Host

Gretchen Steidle is the director of Garrison Institute’s Spirituality and Social Change initiative.

Guests

Susan Olesek is the founder of the Enneagram Prison Project and The Human Potentialists. In 2012, after an opportune visit to a Texas prison, she founded the Enneagram Prison Project, a California Bay Area nonprofit offering self-awareness education and self-regulation training to those incarcerated and affected by the justice system.

Alex Senegal is a board member of the Enneagram Prison Project (EPP), Reentry Director and an EPP Ambassador. Ambassadors are graduates of EPP’s compassionate curriculum who discovered personal freedom while incarcerated. Alex is a father, grandfather, an ordained minister, certified drug and alcohol counselor, court liaison, mental health specialist, and also serves on the Lived Experience Advisory Board of Silicon Valley, which advocates for the houseless population.

Read and download the full transcript.

Show Notes

• [03:36] Susan reflects on her childhood, losing her mother to suicide, and how early trauma shaped her path toward healing.
• [06:46] Susan explains the Enneagram as a psychological system that reveals unconscious patterns of thinking, feeling, and behavior.
• [07:53] She shares how a Parent Effectiveness Training class unexpectedly led to the creation of the Enneagram Prison Project and introduced the idea of emotional responsibility.
• [11:03] Susan describes EPP’s compassionate curriculum, which begins by reminding participants that there is nothing wrong with them and creates spaces of psychological safety for deep self-exploration.
• [14:34] Alex recounts his remarkable story—from decades of incarceration and gang involvement to returning to prison after years of success in the community—and why he wanted to understand the roots of his behavior.
• [19:45] Alex explains discovering his Enneagram type and the life-changing question that transformed his understanding of himself: “What do you need?”
• [23:01] Alex describes how the Enneagram Prison Project changes prison culture by reducing violence, building trust, and creating authentic community across racial divisions.
• [25:31] Susan discusses how the work expanded beyond incarcerated participants to correctional officers, prison staff, psychologists, and California’s Board of Parole, demonstrating the Enneagram’s relevance across the entire justice system.
• [33:33] Susan explores EPP’s theory of change, emphasizing interconnectedness, internal responsibility, and the importance of developing an internal locus of control.
• [39:34] Alex explains why compassion—not simply curriculum—is the key ingredient that allows people to feel seen, valued, and capable of transformation.
• [43:46] Susan introduces Human Potentialists and explains how EPP’s approach has expanded beyond prisons to help leaders, parents, organizations, and communities cultivate greater self-awareness and compassion.
• [47:46] Alex reflects on building new neural pathways, nurturing one’s true essence, and why meaningful change always begins from the inside out.
• [50:33] Susan discusses how EPP measures transformation through changes in self-awareness, emotional regulation, and the impact of adverse childhood experiences.
• [52:42] Susan and Alex explain Connect the Dots, EPP’s advanced program that prepares incarcerated participants for parole by helping them develop greater accountability, presence, and emotional insight.
• [56:54] Susan closes by reflecting on hope, human potential, and why moments of collective crisis can become opportunities for greater presence and transformation.
• [58:31] Alex concludes with a powerful reflection on healing childhood trauma, discovering compassion for his mother, and why lasting transformation begins with understanding the pain beneath our behaviors.