Host

The Garrison Institute co-founder, urban visionary and award-winning author Jonathan F.P. Rose.

Guest

David Abram is a renowned cultural ecologist, philosopher, and pioneering voice in ecological thought, celebrated for bridging phenomenology and ecological thinking. Founder of the Alliance for Wild Ethics, he explores the deep relationship between human perception and the living Earth. His influential books include The Spell of the Sensuous and Becoming Animal.

Read and download the full transcript.

Show Notes

[00:00] Jonathan Rose introduces philosopher and cultural ecologist David Abram, whose work bridges phenomenology and ecology, inviting a deeper exploration of humanity’s place within a living Earth.

[01:06] David explains why the word “nature” is insufficient, and introduces the now well-known phrase he coined, the “more-than-human world,” as a way to describe a reality that includes—but always exceeds—human life. For similar reasons, David challenges the concept of the “Anthropocene,” which refers to the era in which human activity has shaped the natural world throughout. David warns that it risks reinforcing human dominance and justifying further control over Earth’s systems rather than cultivating humility.

[08:15] David points out that in many Indigenous traditions, there is no separate word for nature because humans are inseparable from the living whole, reflecting on how language shapes perception and limits modern understanding.

[11:18] David introduces the idea of consanguinity, “sharing the same blood.” Modern culture identifies the person with their mind, but Abram points out that perception is embodied. Our senses, bodily organs, are our primary way of relating to the wider animate world, and identification with our bodies allows us to deeply relate to the world around us.

[20:27] Jonathan and David discuss mutuality and reciprocity. David points out that we tend to take the air we breathe for granted, but it is precisely the byproduct of plant’s photosynthesis; in turn, plants need the carbon dioxide we breathe out. Animals and plants exist in continuous exchange, revealing a fundamental reciprocity at the heart of life. David emphasizes symbiosis and cooperation in the process of evolution.

[26:09] David reframes Descartes’ famous statement, “I think therefore I am,” proposing that our existence is rooted in relationship with other beings, not isolated thought: “You are, therefore I am,” where “you” may be an oak tree, or a forest, or a clump of sagebrush, or a spider weaving a web in the corner of my apartment, and so on.

[36:18] Abram describes the atmosphere that surrounds Earth as a co-created, living organ, shifting our perspective from living on Earth to living within it. David calls for a renewed attention to the profound mystery and intelligence already present on Earth, pushing back against space race enthusiasm.

[45:40] Drawing on his travels as a sleight-of-hand magician and anthropologist, David shares how traditional healers serve as intermediaries between human and more-than-human worlds, maintaining balance and reciprocity.

[51:40] The conversation turns to the absence of this mediating role in modern society and its implications for ecological and social imbalance.

[54:53] David proposes a new framing for the era we’re in: rather than the Anthropocene, defined by human dominance, he offers the Humilicene, defined by humility and human restraint in relationship to the living Earth.

[58:30] Expanding our relationships beyond humans can ease social tension and restore balance, offering a pathway toward both personal and collective healing.

[01:01:28] David shares thoughts on his upcoming work and recommends influential books that deepen our understanding of ecological interconnection: The Overstory by Richard Powers, Underland by Robert Macfarlane, Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, and Song of the World by Jean Giono, Reindeer Moon by Elizabeth Marshall Thomas, and poetry by Gerard Manley Hopkins.